Curse

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 11:15 AM // 11:15

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( sorry to say this , but many arguments here look like " no plz i want my ambrances so no nerf " )

Well, that's enough said.

It's not that much about people getting more money through SCs. It's about the vast difference between playing high-end areas with cons and without. The SCers above probably forgot how it was to play UW/DoA without any consumables, even personal ones, or they never even really attempted it. Even with gimmicky builds, it's MUCH harder without cons. There's a big void in terms of difficulty.
And that's plainly silly.
Craft/buy a few items, pop them and turn the god mode on. If it was a single player game, like Fallout or Dragon Age, i wouldn't mind - i wouldn't use consumables and if you did, it wouldn't bother me at all. But we play an MMO game - sure, it's unique in terms of playstyle, with zoning, low level cap, and stuff. Still, your playstyle affects me - and everyone around - in a way.
Sure - everyone can buy a conset. And change the elite, high-end area into a walk in a park. The whole point is - it shouldn't be possible. It's just a bad move from ANet to make UW/FoW/DoA doable in ~30 min... not to mention pre-Dhuum 7 min UW. And it should be fixed.

The best way would be to completely get rid of cons, at least consets and the most overpowered personal ones, like rock candies. But it seems ANet likes adding more stuff that makes gamers' lives easier. So at least limit them.
Making them more expensive is one option. Another is to limit how many cons, both personal and party-wide, one can have at a time. Since consumables are PvE-only, they should be treated as PvE-only skills, allowing only three of them active on a player at any given time. If he already had three, the oldest one gets replaced with the newly popped or the newest one has no effect.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 12:25 PM // 12:25

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Originally Posted by drkn

Well, that's enough said.

It's not that much about people getting more money through SCs. It's about the vast difference between playing high-end areas with cons and without. The SCers above probably forgot how it was to play UW/DoA without any consumables, even personal ones, or they never even really attempted it. Even with gimmicky builds, it's MUCH harder without cons. There's a big void in terms of difficulty.
And that's plainly silly.
Craft/buy a few items, pop them and turn the god mode on. If it was a single player game, like Fallout or Dragon Age, i wouldn't mind - i wouldn't use consumables and if you did, it wouldn't bother me at all. But we play an MMO game - sure, it's unique in terms of playstyle, with zoning, low level cap, and stuff. Still, your playstyle affects me - and everyone around - in a way.
Sure - everyone can buy a conset. And change the elite, high-end area into a walk in a park. The whole point is - it shouldn't be possible. It's just a bad move from ANet to make UW/FoW/DoA doable in ~30 min... not to mention pre-Dhuum 7 min UW. And it should be fixed.

The best way would be to completely get rid of cons, at least consets and the most overpowered personal ones, like rock candies. But it seems ANet likes adding more stuff that makes gamers' lives easier. So at least limit them.
Making them more expensive is one option. Another is to limit how many cons, both personal and party-wide, one can have at a time. Since consumables are PvE-only, they should be treated as PvE-only skills, allowing only three of them active on a player at any given time. If he already had three, the oldest one gets replaced with the newly popped or the newest one has no effect.

Well, as I pointed out already, you wouldn't hurt us with it if you made em more expensive, so I don't see how this is "QQ you're making my armbrace less expensive" (also @ 2 posts above, try to spell armbrace correctly please, it really annoys me) since my armbrace would skyrocket, so would ecto's and you would make me a very happy man..

Comparing them to PvE-only skills is the weirdest and possibly most far-fetched comparison I've seen here. They are not like PvE only skills, because the PvE skills are limited to 3 to prevent people from filling their bars with 8 incredibly overpowered skills that either do a lot of damage (PI) when used properly, or can't knock you down etc. Imagine an assassin with the following runner bar: Glyph, SF, Dwarven Stability, IAU, Don't Trip, Shadow Sanctuary, Mental Block, and a wrappable Mindmender, or change some skills with Feel No Pain, or drunken master, when drunk..
Enough examples.

You pay for cons, also personal cons, and as such, you should be free to use them. You didn't pay money for yyour PvE skills. And some pcons are only available once a year, and are super cheap for a month and then go ridiculously expensive all of a sudden..

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 01:01 PM // 13:01

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They are not like PvE only skills, because the PvE skills are limited to 3 to prevent people from filling their bars with 8 incredibly overpowered skills that either do a lot of damage (PI) when used properly, or can't knock you down etc. Imagine an assassin with the following runner bar: [snip]

You have just proven why cons should be limited.
3 PvE skills to prevent people from using eight incredibly overpowered skills, but having incredibly overpowered cons is fine? It's the very same thing. Imagine a sin with essence, grail, armor, egg, red candy, apple candy, (...). It's the very same - overpowered and making the game lol-easy.

Chocolate_Prayers · Mar 07, 2011, 01:11 PM // 13:11

And what's wrong with making the game "lol-easy"? There will always be people out there that will enjoy that kind of gameplay. You can't seriously expect people to play the game the way that YOU want them to.

If you have a problem with consets, have you ever considered not using them yourself? Why spoil everything for everyone else just because you don't like something?

As Bright said, people earn the cons (and personal cons), whether it be through farming them, or through farming money in order to purchase them (which in turn allows other players to make money allowing them to finance items for their HoM for example) so they should be able to use them.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Yes, I pop all these cons when tanking DoA. When I go into trench I pop: Cupcake, Egg, corn, pie, Apple, War supply. Why? Because it makes it a lot easier, that's true, but it's still not that easy. For me it is, because I'm used to it, yet I still have runs where I RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO things up because of bad timing or bad luck on patrols. Also pop all of the above but Cupcake when doing gloom cave. For all the rest, no personals.

People only pop that many cons when they are doing something that will be profitable. Or on record runs. How many personals that get popped there.. Jezus..

Anyway, small time players that do FoW and UW are already struggling to pull things off without failing, you want to penalize them even more? go ahead, the ones you are trying to hit with your genius idea won't get hit too hard. If you limit it to 3 all that's gonna be used is the conset itself, what will this do to us? Mesmers can't pop red rocks, which will make spikes a bit slower, and ssins will have a little bit more fails, and a harder time staying alive, but tbh trench won't get that much harder, you will only have to time the mesmer lord pull better, and at gloom cave there isn't really a problem, because you should be out of hitting range fast enough using SoH etc.. Although you probably don't understand any of what I just said..

tl;dr, still only shooting the innocent while trying to get the guilty. (yes, I just made that up :P)

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

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And what's wrong with making the game lol easy? There will always be people out there that will enjoy that kind of gameplay. You can't seriously expect people to play the game that YOU want them to.

No one would care if it was a single player game. But it's not. Allowing the lol-easy mode via cons was probably the worst step from ANet since the game's release, further making it even easier by subsequent updates. While some of them were sane and even needed - mes update, derv update, heroes update, minion panel - the consumables are another tale - they're NOT necessary for normal play, while they change high-end, supposedly hard areas into an easy walk. That's a flaw in design.

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If you have a problem with consets, have you ever considered not using them yourself?

It's funny how people base their arguments on assumptions. The only time i ever popped a conset is when i went for Mallyx with my fiancee and six heroes, with mes and rit primairies. That is, in 2,5 years time of playing GW, i used one armor, one grail and one essence - yay!
Unless i just wanted to get rid of them and popped them at Fort Ranik.

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Anyway, small time players that do FoW and UW are already struggling to pull things off without failing, you want to penalize them even more?

Yeah, i'd actually like to see high-end areas, at least the three of them, to be HARD to complete, taking at least several failures before your team gets a grasp on them. It used to be that way and it still is if you don't use cons and terribly broken gimmicky builds. UW, FoW and DoA were mean't to be hard and not doable at first run.
Now it's just... get eight people, pop cons, keep your eyes open and spam skills. Only the Four Horsemen keep the level.

E:
Actually, experienced SCers should favor the nerf of cons. Being good enough, they'd keep up with three cons rather than ten or more, while there'd be less people getting into SCs, making the drops more valuable.
So yeah, even if you want to SC, it'd be cool if you knew what you're doing and watched the field instead of popping five personal cons more.

Chocolate_Prayers · Mar 07, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

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Originally Posted by drkn

they're NOT necessary for normal play, while they change high-end, supposedly hard areas into an easy walk. That's a flaw in design.

and yet there are still players who fail at these areas WITH cons, wonder why.

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Originally Posted by drkn

It's funny how people base their arguments on assumptions. The only time i ever popped a conset is when i went for Mallyx with my fiancee and six heroes, with mes and rit primairies. That is, in 2,5 years time of playing GW.

Congratulations I suppose. Still it's your own choice whether to use cons or not, however by trying to limit the cons you are also restricting everybody else's choices.

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Anyway, small time players that do FoW and UW are already struggling to pull things off without failing, you want to penalize them even more? go ahead, the ones you are trying to hit with your genius idea won't get hit too hard.

This.

Suddenly restricting Speed Clearing would not do anybody any favors (except amusing those who just don't like seeing other people enjoy playing the game their own way)

This is just another part of the constant "NERF THIS PLZ I DONT LIKE IT" "OMG USELESS PLZ BUFF THIS" cycle.
It just ends up with more and more pointless nerfing/updating which I would imagine the Guild Wars Live team has little to no time for dealing with (Since everybody wants their new content amirite?)

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 01:32 PM // 13:32

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Originally Posted by drkn

Yeah, i'd actually like to see high-end areas, at least the three of them, to be HARD to complete, taking at least several failures before your team gets a grasp on them. It used to be that way and it still is if you don't use cons and terribly broken gimmicky builds. UW, FoW and DoA were mean't to be hard and not doable at first run.
Now it's just... get eight people, pop cons, keep your eyes open and spam skills. Only the Four Horsemen keep the level.

This used to be true, 4 years ago. Back when the rewards for the high-end areas were so valueable, that they made them actually worthwile. Now, imagine doing a 3h UW, just to end up with 2 ecto's from your run, 1 from the chest and a triple scroll drop. Noty. Not that I UW, but just as example.
Now, SCs are only worth the time when they're done fast.

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E:
Actually, experienced SCers should favor the nerf of cons. Being good enough, they'd keep up with three cons rather than ten or more, while there'd be less people getting into SCs, making the drops more valuable.
So yeah, even if you want to SC, it'd be cool if you knew what you're doing and watched the field instead of popping five personal cons more.

Actually, we could easily do this, yet I don't see why I would care. I can do runs without personals, in fact, I have done loads, because I forgot to take my personals out of my storage. It doesn't make it more difficult, it makes it less easy. Personals are just a way for us to make things a lot more chill. Less stress, and hoovering around 50hp and stuff like that.
Only, I do not favor of this, because PUGs don't pop personals, unless it's like the weekend and they get them as drops, so they wouldn't be affected that badly.

Also, trying to let us agree with you by depicting us as people that can only pull off what we do because of personals, I'd like to see you do record stuff.. And dare to say that again.

Missing HB · Mar 07, 2011, 01:43 PM // 13:43

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Now, imagine doing a 3h UW, just to end up with 2 ecto's from your run, 1 from the chest and a triple scroll drop. Noty. Not that I UW, but just as example.
Now, SCs are only worth the time when they're done fast.

This is this kind of " only reward " mentality that's getting annoying in this game. Overall , it's devs fault with all those updates that turned players in that way , but still....

I had no problems with consets . But , i don't think that DoA in HM with consets should be 10 times easier than NM with no consets sorry....( really , i played DwG , it was simple random button mashing , i just moved and pressed 123123123 whole area....)...

One problem resulting from that is incredible prices and diferences of capital between players . Someone " abusing " those areas gets in my opinion too much money for the job done , whereas some places probably harder don't.....

@ 2 post aboves : you say we're restricting everyone by deciding for consets . Ok. But , those skeletons and dhuum in UW , which were supposed to make people stop doing SC , made it harder for everyone no ? ( and especially non-sc teams , since those are still able to finish it easily...)

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

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Originally Posted by Missing HB

This is this kind of " only reward " mentality that's getting annoying in this game. Overall , it's devs fault with all those updates that turned players in that way , but still....

Yes, there used to be a time where just beating an area was a reward in itself, but those times are long gone now. They have been replaced with records.

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I had no problems with consets . But , i don't think that DoA in HM with consets should be 10 times easier than NM with no consets sorry....( really , i played DwG , it was simple random button mashing , i just moved and pressed 123123123 whole area....)...

Us doing DoA HM 3 times faster, better and easier than ppl doing DwG NM has everything to do with tactics, not with cons. Also, people pop cons in NM too, so that's an invalid argument.

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One problem resulting from that is incredible prices and diferences of capital between players . Someone " abusing " those areas gets in my opinion too much money for the job done , whereas some places probably harder don't.....

This is completely true. I used to do UW, until I realized that it was crap, and 50 minute runs to get like 1 or 2 ecto's, was bad. Ok, a lot of people can do it in 25-28 minutes casual now, but I gave up on UW a long time ago..
DoA is the best money there is imo, but it takes the most brain. And a lot of things can go wrong. Well, in fact, once you know what's going on, it requires little to no brain anymore, but the learning process takes some time.
I forgot what I was getting to though..
Right, I was gonna say that it's entirely up to you what area you do, and if one would research the money earned in each area, they would notice DoA>>>>>>>>>>>UW>FoW. UW and FoW can trade places, depending on how long they take :P

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@ 2 post aboves : you say we're restricting everyone by deciding for consets . Ok. But , those skeletons and dhuum in UW , which were supposed to make people stop doing SC , made it harder for everyone no ? ( and especially non-sc teams , since those are still able to finish it easily...)

The fact that they went by nearly unnoticed, is because players were ingenious enough to come up with ways to get past them, and tell me how they should be punished for doing this?

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 02:08 PM // 14:08

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Us doing DoA HM 3 times faster, better and easier than ppl doing DwG NM has everything to do with tactics, not with cons. Also, people pop cons in NM too, so that's an invalid argument.

I agree that tactics, team composition and general experience change a lot. But for a research experiment, i suggest you try and convince your group to run DoA HM with no cons, including personal, with your superb tactics. Compare the results both in time and sheer difficulty.

Swingline · Mar 07, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

/notsigned

Changing consets at this stage in the game would throw the balance of the game off so much that there would need to be many changes. Consets were introduced to clear areas faster because after 5 years who wants to spend another 2 hours in FoW or UW. DoA is no exception with it taking 1-2 hours with a pug using consets and having some of the hardest hitting content in the game. They shouldn't nerf anything except skills at this stage in the game.

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

(also @ 2 posts above, try to spell armbrace correctly please, it really annoys me)

lmao

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 02:50 PM // 14:50

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Originally Posted by drkn

I agree that tactics, team composition and general experience change a lot. But for a research experiment, i suggest you try and convince your group to run DoA HM with no cons, including personal, with your superb tactics. Compare the results both in time and sheer difficulty.

Well, tbh, city is easy without cons, the Emo just has to take Glyph and he can wrap ER, so that's just 1 skill that has to be bounced, so Foundry is a cake too. I barely ever use Shadowform in Veil, so don't see much changing there. Downside, our trenchtactics as we use them would become impossible, so we'd have to actually pop a trench for once, adding about 5 minutes to the run. We could run Zraw trench tactics, you don't need cons for those, so that would cut down a bit too. Gloom, since sending a ssin to go prep gloom would be near impossible to get done without cons, considering that they take Deadly Paradox, energy management would be impossible and they would probably gank you pretty badly, so I guess we have to take the Emo to do shit there. Waste a bit of time because your Emo has to run to rift etc..
No 20% IMS, which makes you run frustratingly slow.

Yeh, would probably be about 1h-1h10.

Missing HB · Mar 07, 2011, 03:20 PM // 15:20

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Us doing DoA HM 3 times faster, better and easier than ppl doing DwG NM has everything to do with tactics, not with cons. Also, people pop cons in NM too, so that's an invalid argument.

That's not the problem. I don't care much of doing 27 or 35mn ( just examples ) since , for me , someone who does many DoA runs consec is for sure addict and only plays for the reward ( especially as glaiveway)....

What i meant is that , whatever the build , players , etc.... DoA IS much easier with consets in HM than with none in NM. Just go and try with heroes there....( that's all the point of the topic, it's not a debate about times with consets in HM and consets in NM)....

Actually , you seem to run some special build and thus i have really no problem with that , since it relies probably on tactic. But , when i tried with heroes for hours and then went with some pug DwG , .. wow , it's incredible really...

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

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That's not the problem. I don't care much of doing 27 or 35mn ( just examples ) since , for me , someone who does many DoA runs consec is for sure addict and only plays for the reward ( especially as glaiveway)....

What i meant is that , whatever the build , players , etc.... DoA IS much easier with consets in HM than with none in NM. Just go and try with heroes there....( that's all the point of the topic, it's not a debate about times with consets in HM and consets in NM)....

Actually , you seem to run some special build and thus i have really no problem with that , since it relies probably on tactic. But , when i tried with heroes for hours and then went with some pug DwG , .. wow , it's incredible really...

Well, I don't know you personally, but what I know of you from seeing your name pop up here and there on guru, you are a PvP person. I do not know if this is GvG, HA, RA. But I take it that you did more than 1 GvG or HA consecutive in your life? Well, does this make you an addict, or just someone who enjoys doing GvG or HA? Same with DoA. Reward mean little to me, since I already stockpiled a fair amount of ecto's. I just enjoy doing it. Tanking is my favorite still, although I get the most fun out of doing something really frisky and stupid with my mesmer, yet still pulling it off.

Most PUGs however, indeed do DoA to make some quick money. Also, there is more to DoA than DwG, and most people who don't know the high-end PvE scene don't know this. It's a fairly compact world, consisting out of a handful of guilds (on the top of my head: LOD, Zraw, HRUU, DL, Fury, SPQR, CotS, some other french guilds in the ally with SPQR I can't come up with the names xD) who know each other quite well. But it is open to anyone who wants to try it, and most guilds don't immediatly reject people for lack of experience, because we all had to learn. Yet I'm deviating again. Back on track now.
What I was going to say: most of the guildies or some of the allies I play with have stockpiled enough money from doing DoA to take a nice retirement if they wanted to, they/we just don't. I know a couple of guildies who also do this because they enjoy it, and no longer for the reward. Don't know if I would still do it if the reward was completely taken away though, no way to find out I guess^^

EDIT: euh? What? Did you remove your post yourself, or was it removed? Cause I quoted you :-/

Self removed,I undeleted it: CB

Volo · Mar 07, 2011, 03:37 PM // 15:37

this is out of place but fow never was that hard...long maybe without cons but not hard

with cons or without? well if u remove it im sure we will manage to find another way to do doa without it. dwg will be nerfed i think and i do have an idea how to do uw without cons (tested it during that bs contest that never happened)

tbh it would make the game more fun so i welcome change

ps: uw would be done in an 1:15h (i think) fow 45min with a coordinated team doa...well never tested it

Milennin · Mar 07, 2011, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I have to agree, Consets are/were really a bad idea. If people can't do DoA without them, it means either the area is broken and needs a balancing update, or that everyone just sucks at the game and needs to get better at it.

Dev 1: "Hmmm. Not enough people can handle this elite area in the current game, how about we carefully balance it and make it so it's somewhat more do-able for the player base outside the absolute hardcore players."
Dev 2: "Nawww, why not just let people buy an instant god-mode button for a few K ingame and be done with it?"
Dev 3: "Dude! Great idea!!"

Bright Star Shine · Mar 07, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

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Originally Posted by Milennin

I have to agree, Consets are/were really a bad idea. If people can't do DoA without them, it means either the area is broken and needs a balancing update, or that everyone just sucks at the game and needs to get better at it.

Dev 1: "Hmmm. Not enough people can handle this elite area in the current game, how about we carefully balance it and make it so it's somewhat more do-able for the player base outside the absolute hardcore players."
Dev 2: "Nawww, why not just let people buy an instant god-mode button for a few K ingame and be done with it?"
Dev 3: "Dude! Great idea!!"

I think I pointed out a few posts above that DoA without cons would just cripple us a bit, but you wouldn't stop us. Also, you would most likely only do us a favor, something we already pointed out too. So either you just skipped every post and posted your own opinion without looking at what has been said, or you are the best selective reader ever.

Also, I take it you are one of those people that has never even thought about doing DoA, and out of lack of knowledge just makes assumptions, because you obviously don't know anything about how it works, how balanced it is, or anything even remotely related. So, you just pointed out you're bad at the game.

Milennin · Mar 07, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

^ Nope, I can do DoA without consets actually. But nice assuming I never even been there.

I just don't see the justification for consets even being in the game. 99% of the game was a joke, and only got to be a bigger joke with this 7 heroes update. Consets are worthless garbage, only used to speed up a run through an area.

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

@Bright
It's not about whether it's easy or not, or doable. I've mentioned using a conset only once, as i've killed Mallyx with my fiancee and 6 heroes - in the same group, we've cleared the whole DoA NM, as primairy rit and mes. Before the mesmer update, after VoR nerf - sometime about then. I can't say it was as hard as Operation Valhalla in good old Commandos, but at the same time, i wouldn't consider us lame at the game.
Still, it required knowledge about DoA, it took us a few runs to tweak our builds, time pulls, find routes. And still, it took us a 'while'. Even doing DoA with a guild group ~2 years ago took us a few hours, in NM.
Then, we could just switch to HM, pop cons, get some personal cons and do it twice faster than in NM, with the same people and builds...

My general points is - if you want fast farms, get raptors or vaettirs. Or anything like this. Leave high-end areas as hard places that pose some challenge, especially to PuGs.